Manspeak


Courtship or Dating? by Justin Day
February 12, 2009, 8:00 am
Filed under: Roles and Relationships, Thought Initiative

thoughtintiative

by Justin Day

A retired love guru once said:

So if you have been around Volunteers For Christ and Cornerstone Church for a while, you will have (hopefully) noticed that guy/girl relationships are a bit different. We don’t date. We have kissed goodbye to dating and said hello to courtship!

That’s right, all of us weirdos at VFC have kicked dating to the curb and chosen to embrace courting. Since there is no explicit discussion in scripture on how to conduct premarital relationships, the only valid reason I can muster for our converstion to courtship from traditional dating would be to abstain from sinning.

Given this, if both people involved want to engage in dating with the goal of living like Christians would there still be reason to practice courting? Or rather, is there something else involved in courtship that should cause us to practice courtship over dating? And most importantly, is that found in scripture?

P.S. As a sidenote, next week we’re planning on kicking computers to the curb and embracing papyrus. Laptops just make it too easy to sin.

Edit: I did not intend for this joke to be offensive, but completely light hearted. If anyone found it to be offensive then I apologize. I would never want to bring division among brethren over such an issue. So if this joke did offend you, then I’m sorry. Please don’t let it stop you from commenting and contributing to good discussion.

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45 Comments so far
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As you have said there is no scripture for dating or courtship and your reason for courtship to abstain from sinning is a huge one. I believe that as Christians we know how much God hates sin and this abstaining from sinning should be enough to heavily consider “courtship.”

Comment by Jeremy O

I’m giving up cars for this:http://onnitt.com/images/amish2_z0l8.jpg

Comment by David Wells

A little sarcastic today, aren’t we Day?

1. Who is the old crying man?
2. What are your views on courting? Do you think it is just a word game?

Comment by Tyler Thayer

lol The old man that cries is Walt. I was trying to think of a way to introduce him last night at midnight and, for some odd reason, the only two things I could think about were (1) he’s ancient [28 or something] (2) he cries a lot [which isn’t a bad thing]. I was just poking at him because I love him.

I’ll go into it a lot more detail with you face to face if you’d like, because there is just so much to write. But, mostly I think the whole Sovereign Grace courtship stuff is a complete overreaction to “worldly dating.”

It has a great motive, but isn’t very well thought out in my opinion. It is completely possible to be a Christian and date and glorify God. I don’t think glorifying God and dating before “courting time” or “when you’re ready” or however else you’d like to say it, are mutually exclusive.

Nevertheless, God has placed me in a church that practices it. So I can only attempt to humbly submit to my pastors.

Comment by Justin Day

Here’s a question, why must we apologize for making jokes? It seems like there is a big opposition to making jokes about courtship and dating. I laugh at why we wrestle with either: a) trying to define them, b) trying to defend one of them.

Scripture says nothing about how you should seek a wife. We are called to “seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness” (Matthew 6:33). That means keeping yourself accountable and avoid making an idol of relationships. The “courtship” system is just one way of doing that, an idea based in the gospel. But it is not the gospel. It is not scripture. You don’t have to be 100% on board with it, such as the public display of affection part. Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Let people be offended if it is the right reason. We can be a little defensive about the wrong things. Don’t make fun of killing sin. Make fun of our attachment to a term. I was able to get that you made that joke in good taste.

Comment by David Wells

*Just to clarify, Scripture lays out no system for pursuing marriage.

Comment by David Wells

I would agree David. However, scripture does outline a really good argument for the heart of the pursuit. Also, it outlines marriage very well. So we must be careful how we handle it, that is quite evident.

I would also agree that it is okay to make jokes, but a joke without context can be misleading. Plus it never hurts to apologize for a joke that makes another brother or sister stumble (Romans 14). I trust that Justin had a reason for “editing” the post, and I do not question it. (BTW, I think I might like Walt’s new nickname even better)

Now to the post…

Justin, I would, to some degree, agree with you. Some aspects of courting have damaged brotherly-sisterly relationships. However, I believe this is because of how easy it is to corrupt things in a sinful and fallen world.

If there was only one good thing about courtship, it would be that it brings new diction to a world that has lost a biblical definition. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with dating. It is just a word that defines a relationship between a man and woman. Hopefully they are pursuing marriage to some degree. However, as I state before, good things are quickly and easily corrupted.

I would say that in our culture, and please tell me if you disagree, “dating” does not have any biblical meaning at all. If anything it has more connections and alludes, more often than not, to sexual desire, lust, sex, and attraction. And the funny thing is that when someone says “we are dating” all this is acceptable. The word brings no distinction to the relationship. It could be many things, it could be fleshly, worldly, fake, or even something very biblical and godly!

So one thing that “courtship” does very well is bring a definition that is instantly recognizable by anyone who hears it. It refers to biblical dating, and hopefully a purposeful intent to marry through Christ to the glory of God. Now, I say this with care because the matter of the fact is that the couple must live it out (and don’t be fooled, just because someone calls it courting doesn’t mean it is honorable and pure). Just as we are called to live worthy of the gospel, we must live worthy of the gospel in our pursuit of a girlfriend/wife or boyfriend/husband.

The very word of courtship brings distinction, and that is very good. But I will always say that it is not the word, but the heart that matters most. That word means nothing without Christ! And it is very likely that it will be corrupted before Christ’s return.

Comment by Tyler Thayer

Justin, Itd be cool to see a bullet point explanation of what you think courting is, and how you think it could overreact to biblical dating. Also, it’s important to keep in mind that a lot of the overreactions we see, are simply how we perceive other someone else’s (a sinner’s, remember) experiences–which might or might not rightly illustrate the heart of courtship.

As for me, I’d probably just bullet point courtship as opposed to dating this way:

( ) Pursuing God’s glory through a relationship rather than your personal fun/googlywooglies.

( ) Ie: Through passionately pursuing purity.

( ) Serving the other person more than yourself–whatever that looks like

( ) Ie: Emphasis on building each other up in Christ–not into each other prematurely

( ) Waiting until you’re reasonably close to being able to marry someone before you go for it. Then you’re like 8 months into a relationship, wanna get hitched (or at least your body does) and you’re stuck!

( ) Avoiding unnecessary [not a blanket statement ALL] emotional closeness/physical closeness that comes with flippant dating.

( ) Emphasis on contentment in singleness and USING your single time serving God, not looking for the next date.

I’m not an awesome example of it, and this isnt a comprehensive, wonderfully thought out explanation. Hopefully it’s helpful. Courtship isnt a rulebook, it’s not the bible, and there’s grace for people that have other convictions. Please don’t let this issue make or break hanging with VFC/Cornerstone! Make Jesus you’re (i don’t know who i’m talking to) priority.

Thanks!

Comment by joshcan

Hey guys, thanks for the thought provoking comments. I was kind of regretting writing on this topic at first since it offended people, but I’m glad I wrote it now because there have been some good contributions written.

I don’t have too much time to write everything I want to say right now, but I will try my best to jot down some of my thoughts.

(1) There is no instruction on how to conduct relationships in scripture. David was 100% correct when he pointed this out because I think it’s an extraordinarily important point. Obviously God is allowing the kingdom to have a lot of leniency on this issue because there are so many other issues that He has explicitly taught us, but on this issue it’s really up in the air for us.

If there should be one monolithic style of premarital relationships that Christians should follow, why wouldn’t it be in the scripture? I think we all know that if it was important to God, He would have instructed us on how He wanted us to do it.

(2)Courtship is NOT “biblical dating.” I don’t mean this rude at all, but it is simply false to call courtship biblical dating. Courtship is Sovereign Grace dating…nothing more, nothing less.

Why people use the term “biblical” when there is no explicit teaching about it in the Bible itself blows my mind. Now they might infer some aspects of it in the Bible and use those inferences to form some coherent system of dating (ie, what Josh Harris tried to do) but they did not find this in scripture.

In all honesty, polygamy is far more “biblical” than courtship. I know it’s the dirty little secret of modern Christians, but it’s the truth. If we were wanting to actually be “biblical” I don’t really see why we would object to polygamy in relationships. [This is a whole different topic and I will write another TI post on it soon. So let’s not get hung up on polygamy for now.]

(3)Every example I hear of “dating” when people discuss this issue refers to the non-Christian style of dating. Every time people say “dating is for sex” and “selfishness” or whatever else, it’s always referring to the way non-Christians date.

This is another point that I just cannot comprehend about the whole courtship thing. Many people make it seem like it’s either we practice courtship or we live like heathens again. To be honest, this is just false. I believe it’s entirely possible to date someone before you are “ready” and respect their person as a daughter of God and give glory to him while doing it.

Here is a good analogy for what I’m saying: Let’s say you walk up to a Christian guy our age and he says that he’s been on the internet all night. After he says this to you, you tell him that it’s not “biblical” to use the internet to look at porn and that he should stop using the internet because “worldly internet use” is for porn [which is why the internet got so popular so quick]. And whenever he tries to tell you that he’s using it to watch sermons or read good books from early Christian writers that he can’t find at his local library or reading good blogs or whatever else, you don’t talk about those things but just use examples of how “the world” uses the internet.

I will admit that I haven’t scavenged through all the literature on this, but from those that I’ve talked to about it and from what little I have read, this is what I see. It’s like they ignore the other 99.9999998% of Christendom that doesn’t practice courtship.

(4)Courtship is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I would agree there are some bad things that can happen with dating, but for goodness sakes, it can happen with anything. There are just as bad things that can happen between two people that are waiting to court that are hopelessly given to their hormones.

Anyways, I’ll try to write more when I have more time, but this is all I could muster in the 20 minutes I had. I hope this helps clarify my thoughts a little better.

Thanks for contributing, fellas.

Comment by Justin Day

On point 1 I can agree that there is no instruction on “conduct” if you are referring to a method.

On Point 4 I can mos def agree. Sin is everywhere.

And thanks bro for posting this…I have more to follow.

Comment by Tyler Thayer

Might I interject?

You see, i’m known as the resident anti courtship guy. Just ask my brother, David Wells, Ben Simpson, my very own girlfriend.

Fortunately for myself, I don’t disregard a concept or idea before actually studying from a primary source (in this case Ben gave me “Boy Meets Girl” by Joshua Harris). I read it (by myself and with my girlfriend) it is sitting on my shelf, it had many good points!

If you were to ask Shauna to name some of her favorite authors, she would first tell you she hates to read (Hah). But then she would list Joshua Harris (don’t believe me, check her facebook). She has read I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Boy Meets Girl.

I’m telling you these things only to lead you up to the truth – we are dating.

Now, let me explain what that means to us. Firstly, I agree MORE with Joshua Harris than I do with most people i’ve run into who court. The book was legit, the author has actual experience with relationships (something very much lacking in those who have preached courtship to me before). But most of all, Josh’s own words are HUMBLE (something also lacking in those who have preached courtship to me in the past).

It is so much left out of courtship talks, and so vitally important, I’m giving it an entire comment. Read it below!

Comment by James Baby

“A newspaper reporter once asked me to comment on the “courtship movement” and the implications of this oldfashioned way of approaching relationships making a comeback. I didn’t have much to say. I’ve never wanted to be part of a courtship movement. the goal of doing courtship shouldn’t be to feel morally superior or to achieve a heartache-proof relationship or to join some courtship coalition. The motivating purpose of Christians should be to obey God.

But ultimately it’s not courtship that I want to point you toward. The aim of this book is to help you place God squarely in the middle of your love life- to show that the journey from friendship to matrimony, from ‘How do you do?’ to ‘I do,’ should be viewed as an opportunity both to revel in the joys of love and to enjoy, honor, and glorify the Creator of love.”
– Boy Meets Girl p. 32 (Joshua Harris)

Comment by James Baby

So yea, once again thanks Justin.

“(2)Courtship is NOT “biblical dating.” I don’t mean this rude at all, but it is simply false to call courtship biblical dating. Courtship is Sovereign Grace dating…nothing more, nothing less.”

First, “courting” has been around much longer than Sovereign Grace has even been thought of. Actually, yesterday I found evidence that the fudamental practices of “courtship” were around in the Medieval Ages in the 11th Century. Starting with courlty love. Granted, it was still very luxurious and probably had very little biblical context at the time. Yet, it is not a SG original.

What truly blows my mind, though, is the passionate dislike for the word “courtship” people have in this world (Christian and non-christian alike). It really shocks me, people will swear never to “court” and that it is pure evil. Lol, I get a little chuckle every now and again just thinking about it.

So back to my original question of if you thought it was a word game. Well, the reason I asked that is because, in some instances people hate it just because of the word. I think it offers more than that, but to some it is a horrible stigma.

Anyways, why do I called it “biblical dating:” To me that is the best way to call distinction. Not that the bible necessarily gives us explicit teaching of how to approach or a method to relationships, but that it does speak about some very explicit and strict issues between people. We should know that we are called to live above reproach, that lust is a sin, that idol worship is a sin, that to hate is a sin, to covet what is not yours is a sin, that causing another person to sin is a major sin! As Christians, there is a lot that goes into living our lives in a manner worthy of the gospel. How can we be the most effective witness and point others to the cross?

Secondly, I don’t believe that if you don’t practice courtship it makes you a heathen. Truly, that is unbiblical, and that is dangerous. What my concerns are, though, are each person’s heart condition, if they know Christ and him crucified, and their intentions within the relationship. I am terribly concerned for a person’s heart and intentions. Why? Because these manifest themselves in how they act, and thus will either make the gospel attractive and be a testimony to Christ, or they will become like hypocrites and that relationship becomes vain.

Christians must understand that we must live lives that are different from the world, that appear different, not the same. It is ridiculous to think that people can read the intentions of the heart, they can’t. And that is why we must live our lives in a manner worthy of the gospel. So that in every instance of our life we point people to the cross. If we have the appearance of doing the same act as someone who is not a Christian, what good is that! It is of no use in the eternal! If we appear to sin, with no repentance and no change, then we are no different than the world.

I’m not calling everyone to join the ‘courtship bandwagon.’ I am calling Christians to not be apathetic in the way they pursue girls and guys. More importantly to the men: If you are apathetic to your appearance and possible testimony to Christ through your relationship and complacent in your pursuit of a girl, you are a coward!

I don’t say that lightly, and it is not directed at anyone in particular. But it is a problem that plagues this generation of young men, even among the Christians. And let me be the first to admit that I was in that group of young men in my past relationships with girls. My challenge is not that we must live the perfect life, no, Christ is the only one who did that. But we must live a life marked by continual repentance with honorable and holy intentions.

Let’s face it, we live in sin and it sucks. It affects every motive and every definition we have. Dating has a worldly connotation because in many cases the relationships that define themselves as “dating” are plagued with sin. If we can’t see that, then we need more time reading in the bible, and need to pray for discernment. Yes, I will agree, the Christians that are honorable and pure while dating get the short end of the stick in this battle of the words. But it doesn’t change the fact that within the word “dating” all things are permissible to the non-christian. It is a word that leaves a lot up in the air as to what is going on in that relationship. However, as I described before, “courting” usually refers to something specific and distinct. I think that’s good. (Also let me say that if two Christians date, good! But let their manner of dating be worthy of the gospel.)

Is it bad to have a term that refers to something specific and distinct? Can it help when it comes to accountability for the relationship? I think it does, and that is why I don’t fight “courtship.” I would rather fight apathy and complacency. I hope that I never cause a riff between me and my fellow brother who would rather call the honorable and pure relationship with his girlfriend “dating.”

Comment by Tyler Thayer

Thanks James for that excerpt.

Comment by Tyler Thayer

And so, the conclusions I once drew about courtship were mistaken. This was primarily do to me viewing those who say they are courting over the words of the “movement” itself (as he said himself, he never wanted it to be a movement).

It is kind of like how people outside Christianity can view Christians and not read the bible for themselves – they get a false picture of it.

If people actually followed Josh Harris’ advice, it would be awesome! But people have taken a reactionary stance on the subject (that is in reaction to those who have taken relationships to the far extreme – one night stands and the likes).

Shauna and I call our relationship “dating” simply because we believe God isn’t fooled by outside appearances. The word we describe our relationship with is not as important as the relationship itself.

God Bless!

Comment by James Baby

There’s a lot of things that I do not know too much about…well at least to post a humble and intelligent post on here.

But regardless,

I think a lot of the controversy is simply a battle with “terms and words.” We so often want to categorize and define certain concepts/ideas that are just too grand to contain or define by one word. I know people have heard this quote so many times, but that doesn’t change the truth it gives “Terms don’t define our lives; our lives define our terms.”

A couple can say they’re are “courting” and be living out the relationship no different than the World.

A couple can also say they’re “dating” and be in a very God-glorifying relationship.

What I’ve noticed (and probably just as guilty of committing) is that people can either gravitate to one of two extremes…Hatred for the term “courting” or hatred for the word “dating”. Regardless both groups are wrong, and realize terms don’t matter.

Another example is the term “Christian.” Living in the Bible belt, almost everyone claims to be a “Christian” yet, many are deceived. We shouldn’t simply let just the term “Christian” define who that person is. Christ said “You will recognize them by their fruits,” meaning what they do means a whole lot more than what they say or who they claim to be!

Now, on to courting/dating:

I’m just going to be honest, I’m ignorant about a lot of things. Therefore, I ask a lot of questions and read a lot of material. Usually, I’ll ask someone much older than me and who I respect and most likely has had experience with whatever it is I’m thinking about. With regards to courtship/dating I say this: Ask older people who have been through it before, and who know a lot on the subject. They can offer a lot more insight on the subject than someone who hasn’t been there yet. Talk to married couples in the church, see what they did. Talk to Mike, to the interns, to older people in VFC who have courted in the past or are currently courting. I know personally what a benefit this is because I have gained tremendously from their wisdom in the past.

Read Josh Harris’s books, pray about it, like James said earlier don’t rule out the other before not seeing things from both sides.

As for me personally, I like the term courting because it is different, it catches peoples attention. Many people have never heard of it before, and that potentially can open opportunities to share the Gospel with them. I think Tyler expounded upon this idea much better than I could, so I’ll reference you to what he said earlier.

Also to me, the word “dating” has too much negative connotation. It’s my own personal conviction, so I hold to that. I could tell you many reasons why, but ultimately its my own conviction, and I shouldn’t expect anyone else to have to do the same.

I think a lot of people think that if they want to call it “dating” they’ll get frowned upon by others in VFC, like they committed a sin or at least some social faux pas. Both thinking that this could happen is wrong, and to those who actually do look down upon those who choose to call it “dating” is just as wrong.

Now, whether you choose to call it “dating” or “courting” you should expect to be held accountable not only by your peers but also to God.

Comment by Nathan Simmons

holy dang there’s a buncha words on here!

Comment by joshcan

Thanks Nathan. I think you thoughts on accountability and seeking older, wiser counsel are points worth noting. I think they are very helpful, and the cool thing is that it is the same thing for other things that are not about courting/dating.

Comment by Tyler Thayer

… I am highly offended Justin.

I am giving up Courtship for Lent.

Comment by Jonathan Kelfer

Hey guys, again thanks for the thought provoking comments. This is really good conversation. Let me further clarify some things.

(1)Terminology has nothing to do with my point. The semantics don’t really bother me. I am talking about methodology, the actual practice of courting. We could call it the union of bologna for all I care.

(2)What I mean by dating. Hopefully this will clear up some confusion. I am going to be completely honest here, so please don’t crucify me too hard on this.

When I say dating, I mean taking people out on dates and getting to know them personally before you’re deemed “ready.” I don’t know of any reason that Christians should not do this. There is no biblical warrant whatsoever (that I have found at least, but I could easily be wrong) to wait until you’re “ready” to date.

If I have a desire in my heart to get to know someone better, I don’t see a reason that I shouldn’t do that if (and I know this is a big if) I’m doing it in a way that respects the Lord. Taking someone to a movie and dinner is not fornication.

And just because I know this will be a question that will be asked I’ll go ahead and address it. I don’t think I have to have a bible verse to support dating or my desire to date. In my opinion, If I have a desire in my heart, there is nothing wrong with fulfilling it if (again, this is a big if) it does not violate scripture and/or my conscience.

(3)I admit “dating” is not for everyone. As the saying goes, there are “different strokes for different folks.” If someone would think they would sin by going on a date, then they should refrain from doing it.

But to be entirely honest, I don’t see any difference in potentiality to commit sin that would happen in dating in a Godly manner that would not happen from just hanging out in a group setting. We are just as susceptible to sin in group settings as we are with dating. And I know we all agree that we should have fellowship.

(4)I am not rallying against my church. I want to make this clear because apparently I don’t write good enough to properly display my motivations. And so people don’t misunderstand me..I am not wishing to rebel against the church.

I am simply expressing my opinions on the matter. Even though I don’t agree with the methodology of “courtship” I have joined this church and am happy to submit to the authority of the pastors.

Anyways, thanks again for the humility and brotherly love.

Comment by Justin Day

2) I agree with you on this point, which puts us in a very slim group of people. In highschool I took a girl to prom and we dated afterwards for a month. From the get go we knew we couldn’t get married, and would probably see very little of each other after college (we had this discussion). But I learned and grew enormously from that relationship, and so did she.

3) I believe you are referencing Romans 14. Some call it “relative truth”, I call it “biblical.”

4) obviously if you agreed with everything a church did/believed it wouldn’t be much of an environment to grow in Christ in.

Comment by James Baby

Dude, Justin, thanks for sharing man. I respect you brother. I really don’t see anything wrong with the “go out on a date” thing. But as you said, there are different strokes for different folks. I know some folks that it wouldn’t be helpful to do that, and some that it wouldn’t affect them at all.

This brings me to a thought I had as I was reading our posts. It seems that we have forgotten the girls on this one. So here’s a question:

What happens when the girl doesn’t like to date, how should we respond? And vise versa, what about pursuing a girl that does like the dating concept but you don’t? Which playing field do you go play on?

Comment by Tyler Thayer

I think that using the word ‘courting’ as a way of making a distinction to share the gospel is disingenuous. There are a million ways that you can share the gospel. Just take some guts. I do not see a distinction worth making when it comes to seeking purity, integrity, and holiness in courtship vs intentional christian dating. I’m probably going to court cause its the norm and just call it dating. Maybe that is why I feel that way.

Second, I think christian dating is within christian liberty. I have not seen any good exigesis on emotional purity (or PDA) outside of avoiding idolatry. I think the boundaries must be respected and agreed upon by both people as glorifying to God. Understood rightly, you are driven away boundary breaking because it glorifies God.

Finally, many people say the ultimate aim in christian dating/courting is marriage. Well I would say that it is God… then marriage… Your ‘future’ spouse does not get to sit in the driver seat of the relationship. God does.

Comment by Dave M

I will probably switch between the terms, and maybe come up with a third one just to keep people on their toes.

Though the “boundaries” are to some extent subjective to the two in the relationship, the bible’s instructions must not be dismissed. We must honor marriage. Plus, the “agreed upon” boundaries may be mislead in the minds of the couple, especially since we are sinful and our heart’s are deceitful. It is wise, as Simmons suggested, to submit ourselves and our relationships to elders and peers as accountability.

And man do I agree with you, the ultimate aim should be God. Amen brother.

Comment by Tyler Thayer

Tyler,

I’ve always stated to online friends (the first of whom introduced me to courtship), that even though i’d prefer to “date”, if I did want to pursue a girl who would only court i’d follower her conviction over mine.

Comment by James Baby

I have a million thoughts, but thankfully I’m doing a seminar on this in 2 weeks, so come to it and you’ll get to hear them.

Justin, thanks for being honest and for pushing the discussion to biblical principles (that is so helpful). But, one question i have about dating as you describe it is “is it loving?” For many girls, dating in the sense you talk about could be leading them on. Their hearts get involved, they fall in love, and where do you go from there. I’m not saying it’s right, i’m just saying it happens. Does dating a guy, going to dinner and a movies, going out with him for a month or two, does that serve her?

Maybe it does? Maybe it would protect them? Maybe it would care for them? Just a question.

Comment by bigplew

Hey Mike, thanks for the comments. I think I would rather talk to you (or anyone else interested, for that matter) in person about the effect that courtship and dating have on direct girl/guy relationships. I don’t think it would be very discerning on my part to voice my opinions on the topic on an open website like this.

Comment by Justin Day

I think dating is always loving if the girl and guy leave it and the only scars the person carries is from their own sin. Honesty, purity, and integrity must lie at the center along with God. I think the need for repentance of the heart and indulgence of the flesh is greatest. There are no laws, not even courtship, that prevent such.

Humility also is needed. I have come to the realization that humility is the greatest virtue in protecting people. It gets rid of any fear of rejection. It gets rid of the idea that you missed out on something good because God has what is best for you. You are submitted to that. If you aren’t humble enough to submit to God’s will and/or seek community input, if you can’t deal with your sin, you aren’t ready and shouldn’t court.

Comment by Dave M

Humility also tells you to back off for the other’s sake. You consider their interests. I don’t think of it as a guarding their heart issue. Maybe it is terms. The result of humility is often the same.

Comment by Dave M

^ So long as you put the other’s good in front of your own 90 percent of the problems are solved. This is easier said than done though.

Comment by James Baby

Can a girl make a comment on this post?

I love reading the back and forth here. Justin, you do a nice job explaining and defending your point of view. (I happen to agree with you, so I suppose that I am biased.)

The entire topic is such that people must develop their own convictions and if those convictions fall in line with the two greatest commandments (as give by Jesus in Matthew 22) then we, as Christians, we should love and support one another.

Additionally, we are people and we all have hearts and emotions. A certain mechanism that we use to get to know the opposite sex does not make us immune from that. God is keeper of our hearts, not relationship styles.

My two cents (from a girl)

Comment by Leslie Bowden

Here here!!

Comment by Sagraves...

what? Who or what are you “here here”ing?

Comment by Tyler Thayer

Tyler are you girl crazy. You respond like crazy when the topic is girl’s.

Comment by Him, Jim and Kim

haha…maybe.

I’m glad you liked the triangle illustration enough to use it as your alias. Cheers!

Comment by Tyler Thayer

Leslie, thanks for your comment. A female opinion is always welcome. What you said was very wise. I agree wholeheartedly that we should put our hope in the Lord and not a dating mechanism.

And I’m glad we finally had a girl’s opinion on the matter. Discussion can sometimes get a little lopsided around here.

Comment by Justin Day

Tyler Thayer – The Ladies Man!

Comment by Justin Day

Can Leslie start posting on Manspeak?

Comment by BP

What up ladies and gents? I thought I would post up a reminder about the seminar that Big Plew will be giving in a week. So be sure to make it:

Crushed Seminar
Saturday, February, 28th
9:30am-12:30pm
Cornerstone Church of Knoxville (White Oak Room)

It’s very likely you will be challenged to think.
See you there!

Comment by Tyler Thayer

I think you have all just argued your way around the same point via different methods. You all seem to be saying the same thing. Just using different terminology and different reasonings to all get to the same point. You all want to have a God honoring and God Glorifying relationship. You all even seem to have similiar methods of obtaining this as well. Being humble, being selfless, being completely devoted to God. There really wasn’t much of a discussion going on at all more just a handful of people saying the same thing in slightly different ways. How such a small difference can creat such an interestingly large rift among people is quite amusing.

Comment by The Squirrel

I don’t think there is a rift.

Comment by Tyler Thayer

Really Tyler? Then why have such a lengthy debate about the subject if there wasn’t?

Comment by The Squirrel

sorry, i thought you were talking about a rift between those discussing the topic at hand. I would agree that there is a rift of some sort in culture.

Comment by Tyler Thayer

I am speaking of a rift between those discussing the topic here. If there wasn’t some sort of rift in opinions between people on this post then why are there now 40+ comments?

Comment by The Squirrel

^It’s called a discussion. I dont think anyone has heightened emotion.

Comment by James Baby




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